tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post6002842963262214856..comments2024-03-16T04:47:28.312-05:00Comments on Cammy Bean's Learning Visions: The Value of Instructional DesignersCammy Beanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-34044384676549814742012-12-01T17:01:18.083-05:002012-12-01T17:01:18.083-05:00My thoughts on this blog are that is it so true! ...My thoughts on this blog are that is it so true! The ID (Instructional Designer) can’t do it all. The value from being a designer decreases when they have to “do” every aspect of IDP. There should never be a “one and only” tool to help them design any instruction; that’s why we, as students, learn that we have a “tool-box” to be able to pick what/which tool(s) are appropriate per each situation. <br /><br />Roosevelt University Student - Heather Geegan - rutraining.wordpress.comAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00309984258924132774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-82565314058348341622012-12-01T17:00:01.002-05:002012-12-01T17:00:01.002-05:00My thoughts on this blog are that is it so true! ...My thoughts on this blog are that is it so true! The ID (Instructional Designer) can’t do it all. The value from being a designer decreases when they have to “do” every aspect of IDP. There should never be a “one and only” tool to help them design any instruction; that’s why we, as students, learn that we have a “tool-box” to be able to pick what/which tool(s) are appropriate per each situation. <br /><br />Roosevelt University Student - Heather Geegan - rutraining.wordpress.comAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00309984258924132774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-64235361750325441872012-09-08T22:03:31.226-05:002012-09-08T22:03:31.226-05:00Forgive me but I think it's a bit dangerous to...Forgive me but I think it's a bit dangerous to combine instructional design and development. I've known some gifted instructional designers who couldn't use e-Learning development tools to save their souls. I've known developers who say they understand instructional design but they're constantly talking about flow, about graphics, about sequencing (not objectives sequencing but sequencing of information). If they are talking about lessons they're lessons related to the final product they're interested in completing. But what if we ask them to produce an ILT or web-based training session? Is the instructional developer going to be able to complete that design? Do they even have the skills to do that? I've met folks who appear to have all skills. Often that is not the case. Appearing to have all the skills and having them isn't the same thing is it? ID isn't just about e-Learning. And so what do we call people more concerned Kirkpatrick's say 3 or 4th level? Are those folks performance support experts / consultants? Are they instructional designers? In large shops you can break things down but that's not the point. In an increasingly complex world we can't all know everything. If I know Captivate but I'm not so hot with say something ancient like IBM Producer or something more recent like Articulate does that mean I am or am not an ID? No its truth one doesn't need to have a degree in ID - there are very few of those in fact. Instructional technology really is the most common degree - and a couple of instructional design courses and maybe some web bool development. ASTD efforts to qualify instructional design aside the community really hasn't answered one simple question: what is instructional deesign? The second one is more elusive, what is the instructional designer? Before we design the other roles perhaps we need to better attend to these two.Kevin Handyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733567240435523858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-78241648310618554602010-09-19T03:53:54.149-05:002010-09-19T03:53:54.149-05:00Hi Cammy, Sorry for jumping onto this discussion s...Hi Cammy, Sorry for jumping onto this discussion so late but couldnt help myself after reading most of the comments. Here are my thoughts:<br />1. I do feel IDs at least need to know the tools, if not to use it themselves, at least train someone else (graphics dept maybe) so that the storyboard turns out the way they were intended to be.<br />2. But we shouldnt be restricted to using only these tools. they should be used only if the situation demands it. <br />My company has a combination of such projects - some projects use the rapid development process i.e. using Articulate and then some other projects which go through the entire development lifecycle. As learning is moving more towards collaborative learning, i think we need to be prepared to move along with the times.<br />3. As Poonam and Rupa pointed out, most elearning companies have relevant people with the required skills involved in development. Agreed that IDs are good visualisers but ultimately end of the day, its your graphic designer who brings your course to life!<br />4. Regarding Mark's question, I feel as IDs the main value add which we have brought about is put the structure to learning and set the goals (objectives) to any learning! I have been a teacher in my earlier profession so know that its very important to know about instruction design to create any type of learning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-38372200909087510582009-06-23T23:40:33.930-05:002009-06-23T23:40:33.930-05:00I agree a bit of both.Though instructional designe...I agree a bit of both.Though instructional designers need not get into the programmimg aspects it will be of great help if they are well versed with the design aspects and tools like captivate.Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584892859485868280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-56975118937746720692009-04-09T00:21:00.000-05:002009-04-09T00:21:00.000-05:00From a teaching point of view it is very important...From a teaching point of view it is very important to use all the available means to make a student understand.MCSE_Karroxhttp://www.karroxbootcamp.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-23485489352313804612009-03-21T06:16:00.000-05:002009-03-21T06:16:00.000-05:00Cammy, thanks for this interesting post. I agree w...Cammy, thanks for this interesting post. I agree with Rupa and Poonam on the elearning industry in India but there are variations too. But I know of few variable cases too:<BR/>1. I know of companies who only hire instructional designers and buy Rapid elearning tools and expect the ID to do it all themselves to reduce the cost and over head of hiring graphic designers as well. One of the reasons is also that Graphic Designers often may not have much work, as sometime people just want ILT, or a few recorded sessions, other other delivery formats like remote training, that do no require heavy graphic or programming work.<BR/>2. Large MNC companies like IBM Deloitte (in India), sometimes just hire IDs and outsource the graphics/development work to elearning companies who have specialized graphics and development teams.<BR/>3. Microsoft in India, just hires content development managers, whose core skill sets is ID, but their role turns out to be that of a vendor manager and content reviewer, as Microsoft (in India) outsources elearning work to 3rd parties.<BR/>4. Oracle has Oracle University that provides services or graphics, editing and publishing to the other Business Units who need this for a price, but several times the BUs choose to have only IDs who would be required to create their own content, whether ILT, elearning, demos, etc using rapid development tools, to optimize the cost and get maximum output. Here IDs sometimes work as technical writers and TW sometimes write courses to optimize the cost. I was wanting to bring this up as a discussion in my blog sometime.<BR/><BR/>I hope this gives you a picture that once multi-nationals have entered they have changed the way in which companies work on elearning.Sreya Duttahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01192430690556080322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-69127096288665807992008-05-31T20:43:00.000-05:002008-05-31T20:43:00.000-05:00Well, "good" is a highly subjective term, isn't it...Well, "good" is a highly subjective term, isn't it (or is it?) Perhaps it's all in the eyes of the beholder -- in this case, the intended audience of the instruction that has been designed. Is it "good" if it does it's job? -- which might be to teach a few specified learning objectives, transfer some information that can be used on the job. <BR/><BR/>But really, I don't know the answer to that question. I often wonder myself -- am I doing "good" work? Who knows? If the client signs up for more then I suppose it's good. If my boss gives me a raise, then I suppose that's good too.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, I continue to call myself an instructional designer -- whether I'm actually good or not and un-degreed, for sure.Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-50994687555054061482008-05-29T15:16:00.000-05:002008-05-29T15:16:00.000-05:00Dick, I've never been a "wet blanket", but I've fr...Dick, I've never been a "wet blanket", but I've frequently been a "devil's advocate." (smile)<BR/><BR/>I can relate to your situations and to your comments.<BR/><BR/>And, it's also true that a degree doesn't necessarily indicate quality. I personally know some less than ideal instructional designers who've graduated from some top programs.<BR/><BR/>Where I can't find any traction is on what the word "good" means. If there are no objective criteria by which to judge, then "good" can mean just about anything. Unfortunately, so can "instructional designer."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-60283009754317027032008-05-29T09:51:00.000-05:002008-05-29T09:51:00.000-05:00I'm not sure that "good" is synonymous with "degre...I'm not sure that "good" is synonymous with "degree" in the case of instructional design. (But then, my Master's is in Education, which has little to do with instruction, now does it?)<BR/><BR/>The value I see in good instructional design is that we tend to stop clients and SMEs from jumping into actually creating the product without doing a little thinking about goals, process and outcomes.<BR/><BR/>The old metaphor of taking a trip by jumping into your car is a great one -- without a destination, any road is the right one. And clients usually are interested in "rapid" learning, so they like to see lots of movement at the start.<BR/><BR/>No needs assessment, no functional spec, no design -- just get that ppt deck going and slap some e-learning together. (Wouldn't you just love to have a heart surgeon who had participated in "rapid e-learning"?)<BR/><BR/>As an ISD, my major function is usually being a wet blanket and saying "just a minute, here."Dick Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07501623860438022909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-54069238876269786412008-05-29T08:50:00.000-05:002008-05-29T08:50:00.000-05:00Cammy, how do you KNOW that there are many GOOD pr...Cammy, how do you KNOW that there are many GOOD practicing instructional designers out there without degrees? What are the measures you would use to separate the good from the not so good?<BR/><BR/>I'm curious, because I, too, have heard a lot of people claim the title (including one Ivy-League prof and book author who claimed to be an ID although he no "official" credentials. He told me that "if you've ever designed a lesson plan, you're an instructional designer.")<BR/><BR/>Even our secretaries have to prove they can keyboard and spell. What should ID professionals have to prove they can do to demonstrate that they are "good" instructional designers?<BR/><BR/>Are the traits of a good Instructional Designer subjective and situational? Or are there some universal objective criteria that are common to every “good” ID practitioner?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-86251893664074300322008-02-26T14:28:00.000-05:002008-02-26T14:28:00.000-05:00I think it is possible. As evidenced by the fact ...I think it is possible. As evidenced by the fact that there are many practicing and good instructional designers out there without degrees.<BR/><BR/>It is interesting how polarized this conversation gets. Everyone's got a stake to protect. Me, I just want to do good work!Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-37587026085927292502008-02-26T13:41:00.000-05:002008-02-26T13:41:00.000-05:00What if you asked a group of realtors if they were...What if you asked a group of realtors if they were necessary? I already know what they would say, although many homes have been successfully sold by owner. I would ask the question differently: Is it possible that an SME can do the job of an Instructional Designer if they have the time and "skills" that everyone here is implying are unique to those with degrees in Instructional Design. Is it possible that experience or a degree in Engineering, Project Mangement, or Business could generate the same skills that you mention? I think it is possible. But people are getting defensive out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-67222090023421068992008-02-19T09:55:00.000-05:002008-02-19T09:55:00.000-05:00Guys,I have "chimed in" pretty late but as I see i...Guys,I have "chimed in" pretty late but as I see it, a lot many times it so happens that we as instructional designers have very little to create with all the templates, standards and customised tools right there in place!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-86922533222031309892008-02-11T11:30:00.000-05:002008-02-11T11:30:00.000-05:00Jack, I think we're of the same mind on this topi...Jack, I think we're of the same mind on this topic. It's all about flexibility and willingness to find the right (if that's possible) solution to the learning challenge at hand. Sometimes that may require more or less ID. Sometimes intuition and artfulness hit the mark the first time...Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-14835584760476817322008-02-10T18:25:00.000-05:002008-02-10T18:25:00.000-05:00Sorry to come to this topic so late, Cammy, but th...Sorry to come to this topic so late, Cammy, but there are just so many things to do these days!<BR/><BR/>I like the architect comparison...I think IDs (who, btw, can be educated totally through experience, in my book) should know something about what is possible technically, but not be the developer. It DOES begin to close a box in on what the ID creates.<BR/><BR/>I also have great suspicions about tools that are "as easy as powerpoint," because the results are so, well...powerpoint-like. ID is really where graphic design was 20 yrs ago when desktop publishing made any one with a computer and the right software into a designer...NOT. In graphics, there is room for both the single practitioner and the level of project that deserves more. Same for ID, I would wager.wslashjackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139224955113406388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-46610027785134973982008-01-23T15:10:00.000-05:002008-01-23T15:10:00.000-05:00Laura...are you finding that instructional designe...Laura...are you finding that instructional designers are involved less in course development and more in overall strategy?<BR/><BR/>Mark...your favorite topic, I know. Is it instruction? Training? Learning?<BR/><BR/>I'll buy that what I do is actually more about training and less about learning. But what about instructional designers who work in the academic sector and ARE actually involved with learning?<BR/><BR/>I'm wondering if we're different species.Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-36754367539729790432008-01-23T07:56:00.000-05:002008-01-23T07:56:00.000-05:00Just an additional thought...what if part of the p...Just an additional thought...what if part of the problem is that we are a bit sloppy about using "instruction" and "learning" as if they were interchangeable? I don't want to get too far off track but I've always thought that part of problem was that we called it "e-learning" instead of "e-instruction"...the latter being much more accurate but hardly as sexy. Are we muddying our own waters?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08218024853670656902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-33587694608534722972008-01-22T22:08:00.000-05:002008-01-22T22:08:00.000-05:00Hi I'm jumping back in and have to confess I didn'...Hi I'm jumping back in and have to confess I didn't read all of the later posts. So if I'm repeating anyone, many apologies.<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to add that I think the role of the ID, as seen in Canada at least, seems to be one of instructional consultant. This is from the numerous job posts (mostly medium size organizations) where they are asking for instructional designers who can assess the learning needs of the company and deliver the right training solutions in a blended format. Basically, they want an 'expert' to tell them how and what to train. There seems to be a mix between contract and full time positions, and I'm not sure how to read into that. I've worked as a technical writer for a long time and am seeing a drop in that area and an increase in instructional designers. <BR/><BR/>I don't know how to interpret this, nor are my findings indicative of any official status in IDs. I'd like to add that I think IDs should be proficient with a variety of tools, but especially become tuned in with the business needs and analysis. I think the role of learning is now similar to the way IT evolved over the last decade. It needs to be more aligned with the goals of the organization to be seen as adding value. "Lies about Learning" is a good book that discusses some of this. <BR/><BR/>As for SME's delivering content, I'm finding that they'd like to but often don't have the time, in the business world anyway.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10106878784769893431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-81799475174351455712008-01-21T10:55:00.000-05:002008-01-21T10:55:00.000-05:00Mark...I agree that in many situations it's the pr...Mark...I agree that in many situations it's the product -- or rather the market -- that defines the role of the instructional designer and what skills will be needed for the task at hand. Some instructional design teams are given a complete performance situation to address. Others are simply told to "create this course." Are they both doing instructional design? Or something different? Is there a scale of instructional design?<BR/><BR/>And I agree that there is both an art and a science to instructional design.Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-61416117632095491152008-01-20T20:22:00.000-05:002008-01-20T20:22:00.000-05:00How about instead of looking at what an ISD does (...How about instead of looking at what an ISD does (process) for a job definition; what if we look at product? Reuben uses the example of an artist and how anybody can call themselves an artist regardless of training. Perhaps then it is the market which defines it...anybody can make 'art' but if you can sell that, then I think even without any formal training whatsoever, you'd have a pretty good case for calling yourself an artist. <BR/><BR/>Another interesting point is that Reuben points out groups that are defining the "semantic language for learning content and events" - there is a noted dearth of academic insitutions. This I cite as neither good nor bad but something that I think is interesting. Perhaps ISD's 20th century origins in a post WW-II labor market are now divergent from other movements within the field of a more academic bent. Hmmmm....Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08218024853670656902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-75940233575914715862008-01-18T09:15:00.000-05:002008-01-18T09:15:00.000-05:00Hey Cammy,Here's the way I like to think about it:...Hey Cammy,<BR/><BR/>Here's the way I like to think about it: What skills/knowledge do instructional designers bring to the table that is unique to our profession that other trades do not? If we can answer this question, we can pinpoint what our unique value is. Is our value in wielding the latest and greatest rapid development tools? Not if our SME's are using them also? Is it our knowledge of psychometrics when we create assessments? Nope. Is it our writing abilities? Is it our knowledge of communications?<BR/><BR/>In my world, the value an instructional designer brings is really their ability to assess and design a learning event that creates positive change for the intended audience. Its not necessarily developing the event or writing it out. It is the creativity and cognitive awareness of the elements required to support the intended change. Does one need schooling for this?<BR/><BR/>At the risk of sounding like a total a$%, I like to think about this the way I think about art. Can anybody be an artist? We can all splash colors on a canvas, give it form and shape and call it abstract art. It may even be nice to look at. But is the product a result of true understanding of colors, shapes, shadows, etc? Can the same person sketch an image from their mind and make it look like the image in their mind? Can they give the image life? To me, what makes an artist is the knowledge behind the product and the practice and application of that knowledge systematically and with intention each and every time. Does art school help? You bet. Can someone do it without schooling...sure. But do they possess the same level of understanding of their own intentions as someone who has studied the theoretical aspects of art?<BR/><BR/>The problem in having a loosely defined definition of instructional design, is that we can question whether instructional designers are needed at all.<BR/><BR/>ThanksReuben Tozmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140864949438721969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-35270496143671536512008-01-17T21:13:00.000-05:002008-01-17T21:13:00.000-05:00Reuben...I'm so glad that you've chimed in and I w...Reuben...I'm so glad that you've chimed in and I would love to hear more from you on this subject. (And I promise to go back and read your original article again!)<BR/><BR/>What I'm realizing is how vast the field of instructional design is. There are many people out here practicing in the trenches who call themselves 'instructional designers', and yet we all seem to do so many different things. It's become a catch-all term for, perhaps, much more than it was intended.Cammy Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164253880427035485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-29378634919228538602008-01-17T11:57:00.000-05:002008-01-17T11:57:00.000-05:00Hi Cammy,I wish you had brought up the part of the...Hi Cammy,<BR/><BR/>I wish you had brought up the part of the article where I do talk about my vision for ID's in the future. The fact that somebody can ask the question "What would happen if all the ID's were to go away" is a sure sign of our decreasing value in the design and development process.<BR/><BR/>Another disturbing comment was the question of whether it is "technology" that separates the instructional designer. <BR/><BR/>My article points to the notion of Instructional Designers developing an agreed upon semantic language for defining learning content and events. This sort of work is already happening with groups like the DITA for Learning sub-committe out of the OASIS group.<BR/><BR/>This group includes folks from the ADL, IBM, Sun, etc. Becoming involved in learning discussions and not "what tools do you like to use" will help instructional designers get back to what makes them valuable. <BR/><BR/>Wish I had more time to address some of the other comments but thanks for reading the article and getting a discussion going.<BR/><BR/>Reuben TozmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28999673.post-58342438413704209802008-01-16T16:11:00.000-05:002008-01-16T16:11:00.000-05:00Oh, certainly an instructional designer can build ...Oh, certainly an instructional designer can build job aids and other forms of support -- in fact, if that's not the case, I'd worry about the ISD skills.<BR/><BR/>I've worked on many projects where I didn't get to ask whether any evidence existed that the stated problem was one worth solving. Or whether anyone had searched for possible causes outside the skill/knowledge area. Or, once we'd focused on skill/knowledge stuff, whether some of it wasn't crying out for job aid or performance-support treatment.<BR/><BR/>That's why Joe Harless aid an ounce of analysis is worth a pound of objectives, and that's why Bob Mager doesn't see "they really oughta wanna" as a sound rationale for inflicting training on people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com